Posts by Cold Steel

1

Who is the Faithful and Discreet Slave, Oops, American Taliban?

by Slidin Fast in

i have just watched the newsroom and it's denunciation of the tea party and it's values.. i have shamelessly lifted part of a transcript of the script off some website.

here are the marks of the true taliban.. .

ideological purity.

Cold Steel

You are sooooo shunned for that message! If we only knew who you REALLY are!

18

Exposing a JW to the definition of cults - good idea?

by NeverKnew in

first, i am not a jw and never was.

i ran into an old friend who had been "baptized" who "encouraged" me to consider looking into the faith he had become a part of (born-in).

i figured, "hey... maybe i'll learn something i've never known.

Cold Steel

Another problem is that the word "cult" has no clearly defined meaning.

I tend to think that to qualify one as a cult, one must isolate its members from their families and the outside world. They must control what is able to be read and what is forbidden. A cult keeps its members from associating with or having critical conversations with non-member family members. They control one's friends and the canon of scripture, be it Scientology's libraries or other articles of faith, forbidding all else.

That said, the early Christian church was termed a "cult" by the Romans, even though not many of the above applied. Christians debated their scriptures, proselyted others, were accused of secrecy and Sunday worship. But they didn't go underground until they became persecuted. Church leaders weren't shy and the debates between Christian authorities and critics like Celcus and Peter's debates with Simon Magus are studied by scholars to this day. As far as we know, pressure was put on Christians to marry within their religion, there was no cutting off of families or demands not to read the words of the critics. Still, it was far different than the Judaism of its day and enough so to get it labeled a cult.

The FLDS polygamists in southern Utah has completely and physically sealed off from the outside world. They're told what they can read and what they can't read and what they can't listen to. Women who try to escape are frequently caught by sworn Police Department personnel and returned to their families. Boys and young teenagers are often expulsed from the group because they form active competition for the old goats who run the religion, some with as many as 80 wives.

The JWs live in a much less controlled environment, but controlled it is anyway. And they cut off family members unless those family members also are members of their church. Like the FLDS, criticism of leaders is not tolerated, and mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters often act as spies against their own families. "If mommie is a commie then you've got to turn her in!" Right??

So once you decide on the definition, how do you pass on the bad news? You can't really get de-programmers for Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientologists, right?

8

Interesting article on JWs repeatedly knocking on the same doors weekly

by cedars in

http://www.examiner.com/article/jehovah-witness-knocking-on-the-same-doors-every-week.

this article also briefly questions whether it is really safe in the modern world to engage in this form of proselytizing.. it's certainly interesting to hear an outsider's perspective on the repetitive nature of the preaching work, even though jws would argue that this is an isolated case.. .

jehovah witness knocking on the same doors every week .

Cold Steel

On one of these crime channels on Cable, I saw one story of a JW husband, wife, and small child who were thrown in a ditch and shot after engaging the people in conversation about religion. The witnesses (small "w") say the guy who shot them were so enraged that he wouldn't listen to them. He told one of the women traveling with him to get out of the way or he would shoot her. It was a tragic story and in my view a monster who would shoot a small child in the arms of her mother should be fried. I don't know how JWs come down on capital punishment, but we need to rid society of people who would commit such attrocities.

5

Recent JW news report from the media, which is controlled by Satan...

by cedars in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2upjotkjojw.

i should add that, even though the media is under satan's control, the governing body may use it at their discretion as-and-when they wish.. .

(bearing witness, page 110).

Cold Steel

Well, for once I agree with the Jehovah's Witnesses. The media is run by Satan and his minions.

Of course we call them "Democrats" out here.

7

Why ? Gods Organization

by BlindersOff1 in

i've thought for yrs why do the jehovah's witnesses continue to call the faith "a organization", "a society" , "a corporation" and not one of the more socially acceptable terms.?????.

church.

faith.

Cold Steel

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are the fulfilling Daniel 2's prophecy about the Kingdom of God coming forth as a stone made without hands (meaning it would be of God and not man). The ones who have visited me have said that other religions are "manmade" -- indicating that they believe their religion is not manmade. But theirs, I reckon, is made by God. After all, what other religion has perfect doctrine (in their opinion)?

All throughout the past, God has worked through apostles and prophets who saw angels. But now He leads us through the scriptures. And their General Body knows just how to interpret them!

But how do we know their exegesis is correct? Just because they said? Everyone says theirs is correct. The Church of Christ says theirs is the only correct one. So do the Seventh Day Adventists. And the Mormons. And all of these are, according to the JWs, manmade.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are an interesting people and are, for the most parts, sincere. But they are also easily deceived and their critical thinking skills are several notches below what they should be. Their claims are on "invisible" happenings (like transubstantiation) and bogus dates. We also have numerous early apocraphal writings that show that doctrines like human beings having spirits are not Greek philosophic beliefs only but were believed by the earliest Christians (including but not limited to the Gnostics). In fact, there's no evidence to indicate that any faction believed in the soul sleeping doctrine. This is no surprise given the number of New Testament scriptures where the body is referred to as a tabernacle for the spirit. In fact, the soul sleeping doctrine for the most part falls apart when the Ecclesiastes scripture is deleted. Not only do we know the exact author of the entire text, whoever it was was a philosopher with a poor attitude. If indeed it was Solomon as it purports, we have to remember that not only was Solomon not a prophet, he married numerous wives that the Lord had not given him and we heathen. They even convinced him to build heathen altars in the place of holy places of Jehovah. So I'm not really interested in his views on anything. His basic philosophy seems to be that there's no purpose to living at all. Life on Earth is essentially without purpose, which is not compatible with the New Testament. In fact, his writings sound more like those of Albert Camus than a prophet of the Lord.

So JWs are not known for this biblical scholarship, and their scriptures are essentially translated in an effort to support their own eschatology. I've always been critical of their translation of "servants" as "slaves." I would be a servant of God, a son of God and even a friend of God, but never His slave, discreet or otherwise. Sadly, JWs are less exacting. Perhaps their most lacking scriptural exegesis surrounds the gathering of Judah in the latter days. They reject a literal interpretatation because their religion was fabricated before the creation of Israel as a nation. It caught them unawares in 1947 when Israel began to fulfill the prophecies, but because they had already interpreted their way around the prophecies, they found they were unable to back pedal their way to be in line with the prophets.

As a people, I find I don't like them. All my family members dropped us and refused to return calls once they became JWs. And the JWs I've talked to here in private messages and later in e-mails all complained that their questioning of any church doctrines resulted in almost instant rejection by even family members, and I'm not talking about cousins...I'm talking about sons and daughters, brothers and sisters. Some even complained that they didn't associate with those they worked with who weren't members. The FLDS people in southern Utah withdraw from the world and aren't permitted to read newspapers or associate with non-members, but JWs have not withdrawn themselves; they just socially seem to withdraw.

To be fair, I've never known any socially or at work, but it seems extreme to pull away from as they seem to have done. No one tells me who to associate with or what websites I can visit or what books I can read. But am I being too hard on them or are they really sheep herded?

26

JOB-Was He Used As A Gambling Pawn?

by PaintedToeNail in

the book of job describes a conversation between the devil and jehovah, as everyone knows.

however, satan knew jehovah intimately and would have been well aware of jehovah's ability of foreknowledge.

one would have to imagine that jehovah could have easily just told satan that job would in fact be faithful and therefore spared job the agony he went through, as he had insight because of his foreknowledge that the spirit creatures should have understood.. did jehovah and satan have a high-stakes game going?

Cold Steel

I have some thoughts about it: Christians shouldn't try to interpret Jewish Scripture because it will only confuse them. They should stick to their own testament and leave ours alone.

We can’t do that. Jesus said, “Search the scriptures, for they are they which testify of me.”

The Old Testament, so called, points the way to Christ. Why, for example, do you think YHWH instituted the law of sacrifice? Because he enjoys the wanton killing of animals? No, but because it was a teaching implement. The sacrifice of the firstborn of the flocks was done in the similitude of the sacrifice of Jesus.

One Christian commentator writes: “It was initiated by a wise and prudent Heavenly Parent to impress upon hisweak, mortal children the reality of the greatest sacrifice of all which would be consummated [several thousand] years hence when the anguish, cruelty and sweat of blood at Gethsemane and Golgotha would mark the crowning climax to the life and mission of Jesus Christ.” In Gethsemane, Jesus took upon himself the sins of mankind, which suffering caused him, the greatest of all, extreme pain and bleeding from every pore. And at Golgotha, he gave his life.

Beginning in Isaiah 52, the prophet wrote: “Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.”

From there the prophet launches a highly prophetic chapter (Chapter 53) that unmistakably points the way to Jesus as the Messiah. But Jews would have to be familiar with the life of Jesus to see the prophetic connections. Isaiah wrote: “He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.” But, he added, writing from the Jewish standpoint, “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.” Jesus thus made no reply to the Jewish authorities.

The Old Testament writers all pointed the way to Christ, yet according to Zechariah, the Jews will not come to a realization of Jesus’ identity until the final assault on Jerusalem by the Gentiles. That prophet writes: “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart. All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.”

According to the prophets, many of the Jews will die in that assault, but those “that remain” will be converted in a single day.

Ezekiel describes that day and what led to it: “So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day and forward. And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.” Throughout the centuries, the Jews were scattered and persecuted by their enemies, suffering under the Inquisition and the Nazis. “According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.” But, said the Lord, “After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.” (See Ezekiel 39)

The Jews, scattered by the Romans in 70 A.D., were scattered because “they have trespassed against me” at a time when they “dwelt safely in their land.” Yes, they were under the yoke of the Romans, but they were threatened by no one. They were safe until they rebelled, then they were scattered among the heathen nations. But in the late 1800s the same God “which caused them to be led into captivity” caused them to begin to be “gathered…unto their own land” and none was turned away. Isaiah wrote that “And it shall come to pass…that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” The first time the Lord recovered his people was after the Babylonian conquest. So prophecy speaks in numerous places about the gathering of Judah to its ancestral homeland.

But if Jews knew their “testament” a bit better, they would know that Jesus was the Christ, and that he suffered and died for the sins of mankind. But prophecy states that they would miss the event, and only when attacked by the Gentiles would they understand their folly. Zechariah writes that only when they look upon him “whom they had pierced” would they “mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. The Father mourned for his “only begotten son,” the “firstborn” of his spirit children.

One must understand the first testament to comprehend the New Testament. If you have not accepted Jesus as the Christ, know that one day in the near future your grandchildren or great grandchildren will.

26

JOB-Was He Used As A Gambling Pawn?

by PaintedToeNail in

the book of job describes a conversation between the devil and jehovah, as everyone knows.

however, satan knew jehovah intimately and would have been well aware of jehovah's ability of foreknowledge.

one would have to imagine that jehovah could have easily just told satan that job would in fact be faithful and therefore spared job the agony he went through, as he had insight because of his foreknowledge that the spirit creatures should have understood.. did jehovah and satan have a high-stakes game going?

Cold Steel

I agree that Job was most likely a morality story. The idea that Satan would be casually making wagers with the Almighty just never made sense. Lucifer rebelled against the Father and as a result was banished from Heaven. Lucifer also knows his ultimate fate is to be cast out into outer darkness and it's something he and his angels fear. (See Matthew 8:28-29) But they are the ones that placed themselves beyond the Atonement's saving power. It's not a casual, or light, matter on either side. It has all the attributes of a morality play.

Samson was another one I doubt. First, he did not deliver Israel as the angel said before his birth. And no one could be that stupid. He confided in the Phillistine woman three times and all three times she betrayed him. On the third time, they poked his eyes out and made him push a grinder all day. He also murdered people to pay off a debt and engaged in animal cruelty. His life was pointless. Finally, I doubt Jonah too. Not because of the whale story, but because Nineveh was a Gentile city, and why would a Hebrew God want to call a Gentile city to repentance? I also know the kinds of people who lived in the port part of cities, where you could get murdered very easily and in which prostitution was rampant. It would be like calling the tenderloin section of San Francisco to repentance. Good luck with that!

3

In bible times, who would be killed first, the Governing Body or the Apostate?

by EndofMysteries in

the 4/15/88 wt says this...... "11 god certainly realizes that carrying out his righteous laws about cutting off wrongdoers often involves and affects relatives.

as mentioned above, when an israelite wrongdoer was executed, no more family association was possible.

in fact, if a son was a drunkard and a glutton, his parents were to bring him before the judges, and if he was unrepentant, the parents were to share in the just executing of him, to clear away what is bad from the midst of israel.

Cold Steel

The scriptures never state that false prophets would be put to death. They simply say, "Do not fear him."

Very few people brought their children before the elders to be executed because they loved their children. The Lord did want the children to know the seriousness of not honoring their parents. The elders made every effort to work things out with rebellious children, but the scriptures never speak of this commandment being exercised. Obviously by "children" I think we can assume we're talking of teenagers. In serious situations, though, the rebellious youth knew the Lord would come down on the side of the parents. I don't think any children were actually killed. When I took an OT course in college, we covered this and other provisions, and most commentators took this view.

18

Why are many OT heroes rich and powerful and rarely humble and poor ?

by mP in

* abraham had hundreds of slaves and was even important enough for pharoah to grant him an audience.. * david, short stint at sheep herding then king!.

* moses was a prince.

* job had lots of kids, servants(slaves???

Cold Steel

Where does the Bible say David was destined to be King? Even if he was (I await the scripture). Does that mean David and kill and take from anyone with impunity. I know your going to bringin up the death of Bethsehebas son, so i wil preempt this and say child mortality....

Jeremiah 1:4-5. "Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 'Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.'"

All prophets and kings were foreordained. But all you guys are nit pickers, and I'm smiling when I say it. Certainly many of the prophets had the means to do what the Lord wanted them to do, but they weren't high rollers. As for David's son by Bathsheba, the scripture states: " And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord . And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die." After seven days, the child died. David had another son, and this was Solomon.

Please show me where it says some hero was poor, scriptures.

One does not have to prove a negative. Although the Patriarchs had power and wealth, many of the later prophets apparently did not. Samson wasn't born into a wealthy family, and there's no evidence that Jonah was wealthy, or Elijah, or Elisha, or Jeremiah, or Isaiah, or Nathan, or Zechariah, or Malachi. And just because a person had means in the OT doesn't mean he was a high roller. Many desert nomads today still have wives and flocks, but they live hard lives. The original implication was that these prophets were somehow high rollers, and they weren't. And again, Joseph was exalted above his brethren by the Lord, but a few generations the Israelites were slaves, and Moses was born a slave and then, by the hand of the Lord, made a prince. Did he have wealth? Yes, but he also developed leadership skills that would come in handy while leading the Israelites out of Egypt and into the desert. Did Moses have wealth in the desert as a prophet and leader? Who knows what his personal possessions were? But he lived a hard life in one of the most treacherous deserts on Earth.

The notion that all of God's people in the OT were living lives of comparative luxury just can't be supported by holy writ. One can say that Noah must have been rich so he could build an ark in the wilderness, but we don't know the details. Perhaps he contracted some of the work out, but the Lord always gives his prophets the means to complete the commandments He gives them. So are we to think that somehow Noah lived a cushy life? Well, we know his life was frequently threatened due to his teachings. People either become angry or they ridicule. We know that none of the contractors joined them when the time was up. After the flood, I guess one could say that Noah was the wealthiest guy on Earth...by default. But I don't think he lived in luxury.

12

Are the Jews meek?

by slimboyfat in

i thought these were pretty surprising comments in the consolation magazine in 1946, just a few months after the full horrors of the holocaust emerged, under the heading "are the jews meek?":.

"there is no evidence in the scriptures that the jews as a people are meek.

on the contrary, jehovah's witnesses only find it stated in the bible that the jews are "stiff-necked and hard-hearted", but when they call at their homes with the message of god's kingdom they witness the same characteristics.

Cold Steel

Regardless of whether they are meek or not, God is gathering them back to their ancestral homelands.

John writes in Revelation 12:

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

During the battle of Armageddon, there will be a temple (as stated here). Thus, it will have to be rebuilt. Ezekiel gives them the directions.

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

During the battle, two prophets will be raised up to the Jewish nation. They will minister for three and a half years and then be killed.

And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Although God will do this for the Jews, John makes it clear that Jerusalem will be classed as a wicked city at the time the battle will take place.

And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

After three and a half days, the two prophets will be resurrected and ascend to heaven. And Gog, the great Beast or Antichrist, will see them.